Curse

PureEvilYak · Apr 06, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Now, just to start off, I'm not one of the people in AB/RA/HoH/etc. who goes around shouting "omg tuchur iz nub skill", or suchlike. I don't even necessarily think it should be nerfed (with my current knowledge, I do, but thats what this thread is all about). Really, I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't be nerfed, and I was hoping you could correct me, because theres obviously a good reason if its been around for so long. I've thought up a few arguments for and against:

1. Can't Be Nerfed
2. Is Not Overpowered
3. Can Be Easily Countered

1. Can't Be Nerfed
I get the picture that some people say this is a difficult skill to nerf without causing problems to Rangers or Necromancers. You can't nerf touch skills, that would cause necromancers problems. The same goes for Offering of Blood, removing that would be bad for necros. You neither can nerf the ranger skills like throw dirt or the stances, for the same reasons.
And you can't really nerf the power of expertise, or rangers would be throughly screwed with. But you can nerf the functionality. I don't really seen any touch skills except the necromancer ones that are used by rangers (perhaps bar mending touch, but even then it would only cost 2-3 energy more, it being only a 5 energy skill), so why not scrap expertise working on them altogether. You'd lose a few sin and perhaps ele skills, but barely any rangers used those anyway. The only other touch skill they frequently use is Throw Dirt, and that comes under the "Ranger Skills" banner, so it would still be affected.

2. Is Not Overpowered
Now, a lot of people say its a good build, but its not so overpowered that it needs nerfing. I will admit, while the damage pretty damn good, its not exceptional, I can do more with a pure bow build, even in PvP. Some people say that you can just run away to avoid it, but then you're losing damage. But you'd be right if you reminded me other classes have shutdown. I may reply that a touchers have very good self heal due to the vamparic nature of the skills. You could remind me that a lot of builds have good self heal.
But the problem is, touchers have a combination of good damage, great shutdown (if you're trying to flee the damage), great self heal, and awesome defense (from both the rangers armor versus elements and the stances that we use to avoid damage). And its just all round good, its all round great. They really don't have any real weaknesses. The skills cast fast, so are difficult to interrupt. It is also impossible to protect against - defensive stances for melee characters do nothing, it is armor ignoring damage (I think), and monk enchantments like prot-spirit and shielding hands do nothing. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but it is an all round powerful build.

3. Can Be Easily Countered
The last argument I've seen thrown around a lot is that its easily counted. There are two methods I have seen advised:
Can't Touch This:
If this is going to be a viable defense versus touchers, it needs a buff. Firstly, it has a fairly high energy cost - 10 energy. Might not be much for an ele, but its still a hefty amount for a very, very specific skill. It also has a slow recharge. You'll be getting 1-5 touch skills negated from this, but a toucher could easily overcome that in less than half the time it takes to recharge. Its also a very slow progression as you add command, so unless you're a paragon, or have reason to have a high command stat, its not gonna do you much good. And a paragon would only get protection for himself, as it only affects the user, not all allies in an area, which would perhaps make it a better skill. My next point is that its a very specific skill. You're just as likely to get touchers in any given battle as not, so people are unlikely to put it on on the off chance that you'll find a toucher as its useless otherwise. It it was given a secondary functionality, say, blocks melee attacks too (which fits in with the skill name) it may well become a better defense, but as it is, very few people use it.
Snares:
Snares are the other solutions. Stick in a cripple, or a hex, and the toucher can't catch you. Or, more usually, he still can. Unless you are 1v1ing a toucher, you're going to be in the middle of a battle when fighting him/her. Now, battles are usually fairly clustered in guild wars, due to range limitations. This means after crippling the toucher, you have a very limited area in which to run, unless you want to flee the battle entirely. Which means that if the toucher will catch up with you fairly quickly. You could rinse and repeat, of course. But every time you do that, you're losing a fair bit of time that could be spent actually functioning as a useful player in said battle. Other classes do have shutdown, but none have such an effective on, whereby the enemy either renders himself useless or takes heavy damage. And it can't be protected against, as mentioned at the end of section two. Perhaps if protective prayers would do something, it could be fixed of this.

So, those are my views. I could be entirely wrong, and really, I do encourage you to correct me if I have made any misconceptions (especially the armor ignoring ones, I may be wrong in my idea that the life-stealing involved in touch skills is armor ignoring). I'd ask that you didn't flame in any of the posts, but I accept that I'm likely to get a bit of that. However, I hope that some of you will prove me wrong, its something I've been curious about for a long time. I did play a toucher in AB a while back, and it took a fairly co-ordinated group of kurzicks to bring me down.. I've tried to make up solutions for any problem I solved. The only phrase I see thrown out a lot that I haven't answered yet is "If its such a good build, why doesn't everyone play that". My only answer can be pride. Its why I don't play one.

So, its taken me long enough to type, lets open this debate to the masses!
(Note: If you do end up locking this, sorry, mods)

Shuuda · Apr 06, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Touchers are a crap outdated build, they have lame damage and a countered by something as common as crippling shot. Honestly, how can people get killed by something that can be beaten by moving around?

netniwk · Apr 06, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

There is a reason it's only used in ra/ab....

ensoriki · Apr 06, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

meh touchers can heal and damage at same time big whoop.
The real problem everyone avoids is that touchers cause people to make horribly lame names (such as Ima touch ya, cant touch this, harrassing touch)

The death of those names is the real reason to kill touchers.

Thus remove the touch feature from expertise.

FluffyBunny007 · Apr 06, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

gogo diversion! yay toucher rage

MithranArkanere · Apr 06, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Touchers are a crap outdated build, they have lame damage and a countered by something as common as crippling shot. Honestly, how can people get killed by something that can be beaten by moving around?

Not moving around.

Steboy93 · Apr 06, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Just hit them with a d-shot or cripshot and gg toucher

chozodude · Apr 06, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

you forgot something under the counters lol

atrophy: bye bye energy management
wail of doom: same as above :P
scourge sacrifice: see if they dare to use offering of blood lol

(maybe not the best/most used counters, but they work lol)

(@post underneath: i lol'd xD)

Chronos the Defiler · Apr 06, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by chozodude

you forgot something under the counters lol

atrophy: bye bye energy management
wail of doom: same as above :P
scourge sacrifice: see if they dare to use offering of blood lol

(maybe not the best/most used counters, but they work lol)

Good way for a necro to yell "stop trying to be me!"

Pikka Wu · Apr 06, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Once I brought a toucher into AB for kicks.

I got owned constantly because everyone kept kiting me

It's really nothing to qq about if you know how to play.

Stormlord Alex · Apr 06, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

touchers are baed

Nerfing touchers would be like nerfing Mending/Glad's Defense wammos or echo-Life Transfer necros - pointless, meaningless nerfs to already shit builds.

PureEvilYak · Apr 06, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikka Wu

Once I brought a toucher into AB for kicks.

I got owned constantly because everyone kept kiting me

I will admit that the last time I played one was back when they were a new commodity, so I don't know whether peoples reactions to them in battle have changed.

RedNova88 · Apr 06, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

touchers are baed

Nerfing touchers would be like nerfing Mending/Glad's Defense wammos or echo-Life Transfer necros - pointless, meaningless nerfs to already shit builds.

Yep that's pretty much it. Touchers are the epitome of annoying, but they sure as hell aren't overpowered.

the ruloes · Apr 06, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I've found that the damage most touchers do is simply too low to warrant a nerf. I might have just come across bad touchers, but usually just ignoring them is as effective as killing them.

The only bother I've really ever had with them is the fact that they're, as you say, somewhat resilient. They can take a while to kill, but really, that's like coming across a 55 monk. Sure, killing him might be hard unless you've got XX counter (in 55 monk case, enchantment removal), but really, where's the threat?

N1ghtstalker · Apr 06, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

touchers are lame builds that can be countered with certain builds
but i gotta put a cripple in my build then =_=

upier · Apr 06, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

The big question is - why is this in the Campfire?
Are the monsters which touch you in bad places giving you trouble? Or do you feel that touchies in your team are icky sticky poo?

Tyla · Apr 06, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

The only reason they should get nerfed is degenerate play.

But that's only in scrub arenas, so there.

Div · Apr 06, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak

1. Can't Be Nerfed

They can, but why would they want to nerf something that's not even that good.

Quote:

2. Is Not Overpowered

Skill balance revolves mainly around GvG and HA (and sometimes TA). No one cares whether or not something is "overpowered" at beating bad players and uncoordinated teams in RA/AB. By your logic, all fire AoE damage skills should be nerfed for AB, and all tanks should be nerfed as well.

Quote:

3. Can Be Easily Countered

As with 2, it can be easily countered in a balanced TA/HA/GvG setting. No one cares if the typical RA/AB team doesn't have tools to easily counter it.

Jetdoc · Apr 07, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak

This means after crippling the toucher, you have a very limited area in which to run, unless you want to flee the battle entirely. Which means that if the toucher will catch up with you fairly quickly. You could rinse and repeat, of course. But every time you do that, you're losing a fair bit of time that could be spent actually functioning as a useful player in said battle.

If you've eliminated the complete usefulness of one of the enemy by applying a simple snare, and you have to rinse/repeat it every once in a while while performing your other duties, it sounds like you have the upper hand. In other words, 50% effectiveness is better than 0% effectiveness, which means your team has the advantage. That's why touchers are so limited - they work against immobile targets, and very few good players are immobile. That being said, touchers work great in RA and AB because most players there are used to C + Space attacking without knowing when to move on.

Randvek · Apr 07, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

When you tell people to just cripple the toucher, you are forgetting something pretty important: the toucher can switch targets. Why does no one acknowledge this? On a team of 4 (RA) or AB (12), for every person kiting, there's most likely someone in reach.

This isn't 1 on 1, people.